Ok, I assume and hope that everyone has read Wicked before reading Son of a Witch? So we know that Elphaba was not the nicest "mother" to Liir. We know that Elphaba did not want to acknoledge Liir as her son. Well in Son of A Witch it says:
"I hate you! Now you left me! And I hate you more!"
and
"Elphaba. thought Liir. Elphaba. He felt. Elphaba, without you in the world. How am I to mangage?"
Anyone find it ODD that even though Elphaba hated Liir, Liir still wept when she died, still missed her when she had gone and still wished she was still alive? I find that intresting. To learn more about Liir, and Dorothy.. but that'd another thread. That Liir really did I guess you could say LOVE Elphaba. Hmm maybe she shouldn't have resented him so much... any thoughts?
Full Version: Liir *SPOILER ALERT!*
well i think that elphaba did indeed love liir in her own way too.... even if it was in the same way she loved malky or chistery... but she did.. and in wicked when he was almost killed in the well... i remember something about elphie being glad that he was ok...
She was in DENIAL. she didn't want to face the fact that she could've had a son, especialy w/ LOVE OF LIFE Fiyero b/c that would make it all too human and she tried to stay above the fray. Also, like Liier in Son of..., she never knew for sure if he was her son. She liked to pretend she hated Galinda/ Glinda too but we know they are threaded together forever.
I think the Liar and Elphaba connection has a lot to do with parent and child relationships. At some point children and their parents fight and in it the worest possible situations sometimes there are unresolved issues before a parent, parent figure or even a love one dies.
Liar loved Elphaba, even though he did hate her for leaving hinm, and hated her for being so reserved. In his mind, she is/was his mother. She did raise him, so whether or not it was biological, he loves her as such.
Liar loved Elphaba, even though he did hate her for leaving hinm, and hated her for being so reserved. In his mind, she is/was his mother. She did raise him, so whether or not it was biological, he loves her as such.
Elphaba didn't hate Liir, she was disdainful of him because she perceived him to be useless, but think about how ferociously protective she was of him, how angry she was at Manek and how she fussed when Liir fell into the well - Elphaba didn't particularly know how to show affection or love, but we know she felt it, especially now with Son of a Witch's developments.
And then, in return, imagine someone who was all you had in the world for most of your life - someone you relied upon to take you with them. Liir tried to break away from Elphaba and go with the soldiers both in Wicked AND in Son of a Witch - and they let him down on both occasions. Elphaba was always there, flapping around - one of Liir's most prominent memories is of being at the hems of her skirts, etc. He resents her because suddenly she's gone, and she never had been before - not because she mistreated him, he had no real frame of reference, but because after leaving the Mauntery, she was his - blood relative or not.
You see him come to terms with this in SoaW. When he first goes back to Kiamo Ko, he is upset when Chistery doesn't disagree with the notion that Elphaba preferred the monkey's company to Liir's - later, when he's older, Liir jokes about it: "She always liked you better," he says, and grins. He knows at that point though, that she had been there for him. At the Mauntery, rocking the basket.
It was a complicated, abusive relationship, but I didn't see any hatred in there.
And then, in return, imagine someone who was all you had in the world for most of your life - someone you relied upon to take you with them. Liir tried to break away from Elphaba and go with the soldiers both in Wicked AND in Son of a Witch - and they let him down on both occasions. Elphaba was always there, flapping around - one of Liir's most prominent memories is of being at the hems of her skirts, etc. He resents her because suddenly she's gone, and she never had been before - not because she mistreated him, he had no real frame of reference, but because after leaving the Mauntery, she was his - blood relative or not.
You see him come to terms with this in SoaW. When he first goes back to Kiamo Ko, he is upset when Chistery doesn't disagree with the notion that Elphaba preferred the monkey's company to Liir's - later, when he's older, Liir jokes about it: "She always liked you better," he says, and grins. He knows at that point though, that she had been there for him. At the Mauntery, rocking the basket.
It was a complicated, abusive relationship, but I didn't see any hatred in there.
Like so many parent/child relationships, Elphaba & Liir's relationship isn't always easy to understand. I think vimfuego said it very well, so I am not going to add anything at this point. :-)
booklady! Good to see you posting over here 
Thank you! I love seeing everyone's photos & artwork.
Alright, I had to say something after reading this. This is a huge spoiler about Elphaba in Son of a Witch. If you don't want to know, stop reading now! I hope no one gets mad at me for saying this---
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In about the middle of Son of a Witch, we find out Elphaba is not dead...That's all I'm going to say, I don't want to give too much away.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In about the middle of Son of a Witch, we find out Elphaba is not dead...That's all I'm going to say, I don't want to give too much away.
Hahahaha!
Ooo!!! I think I know what you're talking about! I'm reading the section called "The Service" and I got this feeling like it was Elphie talking about it! LOL! I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! :ha:
Mini
Mini
I agree with whoever said that Elphaba loved Liir in his own way. She killed...was it Manak??-after the incident with the well. I really want to read SoaW, but have to wait until the quarter grades come out...I'm very depressed about this.
That just shows what a noob I am. I posted that last one. Oops...forgot to log in... :drink:
Hehe you forgot to log in again.
(Guest)
Alright, I had to say something after reading this. This is a huge spoiler about Elphaba in Son of a Witch. If you don't want to know, stop reading now! I hope no one gets mad at me for saying this---
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In about the middle of Son of a Witch, we find out Elphaba is not dead...That's all I'm going to say, I don't want to give too much away.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In about the middle of Son of a Witch, we find out Elphaba is not dead...That's all I'm going to say, I don't want to give too much away.
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
Yeah...I know what you mean, this_year's_pink...I was thinking that too...I think it deals with the "words on the wall" that Princess Nastoya mentioned to Liir...
Mini
Mini
Yes, I guess so! It's certainly not definitive evidence. :disagree:
vimfuego said:
I agree!
Elphaba didn't hate Liir, she was disdainful of him because she perceived him to be useless, but think about how ferociously protective she was of him, how angry she was at Manek and how she fussed when Liir fell into the well - Elphaba didn't particularly know how to show affection or love, but we know she felt it, especially now with Son of a Witch's developments.
And then, in return, imagine someone who was all you had in the world for most of your life - someone you relied upon to take you with them. Liir tried to break away from Elphaba and go with the soldiers both in Wicked AND in Son of a Witch - and they let him down on both occasions. Elphaba was always there, flapping around - one of Liir's most prominent memories is of being at the hems of her skirts, etc. He resents her because suddenly she's gone, and she never had been before - not because she mistreated him, he had no real frame of reference, but because after leaving the Mauntery, she was his - blood relative or not.
You see him come to terms with this in SoaW. When he first goes back to Kiamo Ko, he is upset when Chistery doesn't disagree with the notion that Elphaba preferred the monkey's company to Liir's - later, when he's older, Liir jokes about it: "She always liked you better," he says, and grins. He knows at that point though, that she had been there for him. At the Mauntery, rocking the basket.
It was a complicated, abusive relationship, but I didn't see any hatred in there.
And then, in return, imagine someone who was all you had in the world for most of your life - someone you relied upon to take you with them. Liir tried to break away from Elphaba and go with the soldiers both in Wicked AND in Son of a Witch - and they let him down on both occasions. Elphaba was always there, flapping around - one of Liir's most prominent memories is of being at the hems of her skirts, etc. He resents her because suddenly she's gone, and she never had been before - not because she mistreated him, he had no real frame of reference, but because after leaving the Mauntery, she was his - blood relative or not.
You see him come to terms with this in SoaW. When he first goes back to Kiamo Ko, he is upset when Chistery doesn't disagree with the notion that Elphaba preferred the monkey's company to Liir's - later, when he's older, Liir jokes about it: "She always liked you better," he says, and grins. He knows at that point though, that she had been there for him. At the Mauntery, rocking the basket.
It was a complicated, abusive relationship, but I didn't see any hatred in there.
I agree!
huh?
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
... yeah seriously... where does it say that elphaba's still alive?
(BecauseIKnewYou)
huh?
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
... yeah seriously... where does it say that elphaba's still alive?
It's a joke? Because Elphaba is at not point, but in flashbacks, alive in SoaW.
(Western_Sky_Flier)
(BecauseIKnewYou)
huh?
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
I just finished SOAW last week and I must be missing a chapter in my copy if that's the case! Or are you being funny??
... yeah seriously... where does it say that elphaba's still alive?
It's a joke? Because Elphaba is at not point, but in flashbacks, alive in SoaW.
What about the whole "Elphie Lives!" scrawled all over the place, supposedly by Nor? Hmm? And I made apost a while ago about the possibility of Fiyero and Elphie both still being alive...
I always took the "Elphaba Lives" Nor scrawling to be in the more romantic sense; her spirit is alive and living, in Liir's stand with the birds, and with whatever it is that Nor is doing.
:agree: yeah that's what i thought... i thought that the "elphaba lives" stuff was more symbolic than literal
OMG I AM DEFINITLY READING THIS!!!!! HUUGE ELPHIE FAN!!!!! OMG SOOO SHE DIDN'T DIE OMG FREAKING OUT RIGHT KNOW AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Elphie is back she al;ways comes back and does anyone know if .......... dorothy is still there when the thing happens because just like probably most other wicked lover i HATE HAAAAAAAAAAAATE HER!!!!!!!!!!!! well anyway...i love fiyero(i seriously do!)and if there both in the sequal i'm reading it
in sep.!
in sep.!
Elphie AND Fiyero are back?!?! YAYAYAYAYAYAYYAY
QUOTE(Western_Sky_Flier @ May 1 2007, 09:02 AM) 
... yeah seriously... where does it say that elphaba's still alive?
It's a joke? Because Elphaba is at not point, but in flashbacks, alive in SoaW.
It's a joke? Because Elphaba is at not point, but in flashbacks, alive in SoaW.
I think whoever posted the info about Elphie being alive in SoaW thought the "Elphaba Lives" writing on the wall meant she really was alive. I was hoping that when I read this part of the book, but I don't see how she could be. I assumed this meant that her cause and her spirit lived on.
I really would LOVE to believe that Elphie and "Yero my hero" (hehe, love that!) were still alive, but I would have to agree with the others. I just think that the signs were meant in a symbolic way and that people would continue Elphaba's work and speak out and stuff. But I'm hoping there will be another book to prove me wrong.
About Elphaba being alived in Son of a Witch, it was talked about in a previous thread.
http://www.witchesofoz.com/wicked_boards/i...showtopic=22493
I am really confused by it, I can't make up my mind about it!
http://www.witchesofoz.com/wicked_boards/i...showtopic=22493
I am really confused by it, I can't make up my mind about it!
QUOTE(fabala01 @ Oct 16 2007, 08:37 PM)
About Elphaba being alived in Son of a Witch, it was talked about in a previous thread.
http://www.witchesofoz.com/wicked_boards/i...showtopic=22493
I am really confused by it, I can't make up my mind about it!
http://www.witchesofoz.com/wicked_boards/i...showtopic=22493
I am really confused by it, I can't make up my mind about it!
that thread brings up thoughts for the sequel to my fics... i'll have to reread son of a witch again...see in my version of things.. no one ever dies.... this is going to be great..
QUOTE(fabala01 @ Oct 17 2007, 12:37 AM)
About Elphaba being alived in Son of a Witch, it was talked about in a previous thread.
http://www.witchesofoz.com/wicked_boards/i...showtopic=22493
I am really confused by it, I can't make up my mind about it!
http://www.witchesofoz.com/wicked_boards/i...showtopic=22493
I am really confused by it, I can't make up my mind about it!
I like to think it is supposed to be mysterious so that possibly Elphaba can return in a future novel. Remember Sarima would read that story to Nor about the Wicked Witch and Nor would ask if she ever came back and Sarima would say "not yet . . .". I think it possible that Elphie could return somehow in the next book; as for Fiyero, I don't think so.
QUOTE(Western_Sky_Flier @ May 1 2007, 05:54 PM)
I always took the "Elphaba Lives" Nor scrawling to be in the more romantic sense; her spirit is alive and living, in Liir's stand with the birds, and with whatever it is that Nor is doing.
That's exactly what I took from it as well.
The cool thing about the character of 'Elphaba', is that she doesn't really need to live per se. As we near the end of the book, we realize that Liir is more like Elphaba than he (or we) thought. He has her same sense of outrage at the injustices of the world. He just had to find it. H
onestly, after finished SoaW I'm as not pressed for Elphaba or anyone else who died to pop out of a trap door somewhere. I'd really like to see Liir take on Shell "Go To Hell" Thropp. But if Elphaba comes back, it'll be good from a dramatic standpoint.
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